A Christian & an Atheist Vol.3 with Guest Calvin Smith

Show Transcript

Jay Lee [00:00:00]:

Hey. This is pastor Jay, and you're listening to the daily Sabbath podcast. Hey, guys. Pastor Jay here. Welcome to the daily Sabbath podcast. So today's episode is my 3rd interview with Calvin Smith, a self Proclaimed atheist. And to be honest, my intention for this third conversation was I wanted to try to get away From the intellectual and philosophical type conversations. And with any real conversation you have with real people, sometimes things don't go as plan.

Jay Lee [00:00:44]:

And the conversation ended up getting very sort of intellectual and academic again, which is great. But, you know, because of the limitations of time, I think we weren't able to really truly dig into some of these topics that we explore. And so I think it would be really irresponsible of me not to come back to some of those topics. Because I know for some of you guys who are listening, maybe this is new information. And so I don't wanna leave you with these lingering questions or these new questions that maybe you've never really thought about and haven't had a chance to do much study on. And so in the next episode, I'm gonna do sort of a follow-up of this conversation with Calvin. And maybe go into a little bit more depth in places where I feel like it was left ambiguous and things could have been explained better or or more clearly. And so after you listen to this interview, if there are lingering questions, please make sure you check out the Following episode.

Jay Lee [00:01:38]:

And also just feel free to reach out to me. You can message me at our Instagram account daily sabbath or you can email me at j@dailysabbathdot But enough of that, here is today's episode. Hope you enjoy. Alright. Welcome to the Daily Sabbath podcast. I'm your host, Jay Lee, and I am super excited about this for a couple of reasons. One, I'm super excited because this is my 1st interview back in forever, and so I'm just excited about that. But the second reason why I'm super excited is because of the guests that I have today.

Jay Lee [00:02:18]:

You know, inevitably, whenever I talk to people who listen to this Podcast, the guest and the episodes that people always mention are the Christian and an atheist episodes with my guest today, Calvin Smith. And so just a refresher, for those of you guys who are familiar with the podcast, you know him. But just for those of you guys who might be listening for the 1st time, he's also known as unquestionable Calvin on TikTok and social media. He is an atheist activist, and he's working with the Secular Alliance of Michigan. Calvin would consider himself to be a skeptic and an atheist, a humanist, and most importantly, a truth seeker. And so, Calvin, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast again.

Calvin Smith [00:03:02]:

Yeah. Absolutely, Jay. I I appreciate you inviting me on and, you know, thinking of me. I love having these conversations, and I like being on your show and talking to you. And I appreciate you coming on my show as well. When I was doing my podcast, and We had a really awesome discussion over there. And, yeah, it's always nice to talk to you and talk about this type of stuff.

Jay Lee [00:03:22]:

Yeah. And You are entering rarefied air here because you are only the 2nd person who has made 3 appearances on the show, And so you you are on in air here, so congratulations.

Calvin Smith [00:03:37]:

Alright. I will take my trophy and my prize money anytime.

Jay Lee [00:03:42]:

And, yeah, like I was mentioning in the intro, whenever I do talk to somebody who listens to the show, inevitably, they always Mentioned these episodes, and it seems like they're just really intrigued by these episodes. They're intrigued by you. They really enjoy them. I don't know. Like, do you have any thoughts of why maybe people enjoy these interviews with you and me so much?

Calvin Smith [00:04:04]:

Well, I mean, first thought that comes to mind is people see, like, you know, Christian and an atheist, and they immediately think, Oh, Man, there's gonna be a fight. This is gonna be someone's gonna tear someone a new butthole. It's gonna be a bloodbath. So people tune in for that reason. So 1, I think it's pure curiosity and 2, I think that these subjects are important. It's, I think, Not necessarily the belief in a god or a higher power itself being important, but the whether that claim being true, You know, if there actually is a higher power or a god or something out there, I think that's arguably the most important Aspect of our entire existence would be if there was truly an you know, some sort of higher power that was out there, And it is demonstrably true. It's out there. We just don't have that evidence for it yet.

Calvin Smith [00:04:58]:

I mean, that's probably the most important question we could ever possibly get an answer to.

Jay Lee [00:05:02]:

Yeah.

Calvin Smith [00:05:03]:

So I think it's important to have these conversations and kinda hash it out, get our ideas out there. And if people claim to have evidence for some sort of higher power, I, You know, I wanna see it because, you know, if if you believe in something, I wanna believe in that thing too.

Jay Lee [00:05:16]:

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. And it's kinda funny to hear you say that because I think a lot of times, maybe People, when they encounter Christians and granted, maybe it's in, like, some sort of public setting, and maybe sometimes these Christians are Frankly, annoying. But a lot of times, I think the question will come at some of these Christians who are evangelizing and talking about their faith. It's like, You know, why are you doing this? Like, why are you attacking people with your faith, or why why do you feel like you have to why don't you just let people be and believe what they wanna believe? You know? And I think a lot of times what Christians will say is, well, I mean, if this is really true, right, that there really is this god and there really is a Jesus who Died and rose again. Like, it's the most important thing in the world. And, of course, if we care about people, we would wanna talk to them about it.

Jay Lee [00:06:06]:

And so it's kind of interesting to hear you coming from the other side of things as, you know, an atheist saying, hey. Pretty much the same thing. Like, If there really is a god, I mean, is there anything more important? And so these conversations are definitely worth having, and, Yeah. I agree with you. I think that people yeah. Maybe they tune in initially because they're wondering if we're going to fight. But I I do think Right.

Calvin Smith [00:06:30]:

And then when they tune in, realize like, oh, wow. This is Actually, really insightful conversation. They're not yelling at each other still. You know? Like, wow. Look at how much I'm learning instead of just, like, Looking for the win, like, counting the

Jay Lee [00:06:42]:

Mhmm.

Calvin Smith [00:06:43]:

The hits and, you know, you know, not not actually looking at the arguments. I'm here just for the fight type of thing. Yeah. So that's That's kinda why I like doing these types of discussions and why, you know, like doing what I do. It's because that's kinda my whole thing is I'm trying to defeat the stigma of, like, Being nasty and, you know, mean towards each other about these types of conversations. Like, don't get me wrong. I still have my moments, You know, in person, on social media where, you know, I can get a little worked up, you know, if if I mean, I'm only human. I admit to it.

Calvin Smith [00:07:11]:

But all in all, my mission is to defeat that stigma, that we're all you know, we can have these types of conversations without getting worked up and then still learn something in the Yeah.

Jay Lee [00:07:20]:

Yeah. No. For sure. And so I appreciate that. I think that's something that people appreciate about you in these episodes is that We are able to achieve, I think, real dialogue, and I think that's something that you don't see too often where people are just sort of kind of talking past each other, talking at each other, but I I think we're able to achieve real dialogue here, and so I think people appreciate that.

Calvin Smith [00:07:43]:

I agree.

Jay Lee [00:07:44]:

And so for today, you know, Calvin, I think in the times that we've Spoken before in the previous 2 episodes and also when I was on your podcast. I think the the topics tended to be pretty kind of, intellectual, Kinda philosophical. And so today, I wanted to take a little bit of a different route and maybe get more of your thoughts and your impressions. So I think one of the things that you've mentioned previously is that you've actually read the Bible a lot. And I think you said that you've read through the Bible at least once, maybe. Many times have you read through the bible?

Calvin Smith [00:08:16]:

I've read it completely from cover to cover twice, but I still can continue to read it almost every day. I read, You know, probably 3 or 4 pages of Job this morning, when I was reading for a TikTok video that I made in response to this, because you know you can't just you know, I'm not one of those guys who's gonna cherry pick the and and, you know, not get the context of everything, so someone mentioned Job 12 7 through 10 in a TikTok video. They're like, Did you read Job 12:7 through 10? And I was like, You know what? I did, but I don't remember what's going on. So you know what? Let's take a look at it. That's pretty much what that video was. And so I read 7 through 10 on the video. But, You know, before the video, I obviously read the context of everything, you know, a couple pages before and after just to make sure everything was cool and clear Yeah. You know? And that I wasn't being that guy who just picked a verse that someone said and, you know, said it.

Calvin Smith [00:09:09]:

So, yeah, I've I I don't mean to toot my own horn or anything, but I I do Think that I I know more about the Bible than than most Christians do, if I'm being honest. I mean, maybe I'm tooting my own horn. But but, Yeah. I think it's I think it's important for to, because, you know, I started reading the Bible as kind of a believer. I more so was agnostic, but, I mean, At the time I started reading it the 1st time, if someone would have asked me, I probably would have said that I was I was a Christian at that time. But in in deep inside, I was like, I'm not a 100% sure right now. Even still now, I'm not a 100% sure. Not that I'm claiming to know Mhmm.

Calvin Smith [00:09:46]:

For certainty.

Jay Lee [00:09:47]:

Okay. But,

Calvin Smith [00:09:47]:

yeah. Yeah. I've I've definitely read it a couple times, and I read the the Quran and, the Bhagavad Gita. And I started reading the book of Mormon. It's incredibly boring. So I only got maybe a quarter of the way into it and then just it Fell off. I still need to pick it up and read it again, but, oh, man. It's so boring.

Jay Lee [00:10:05]:

Alright. Well, I give you permission not to read it. I'm just kidding. But, okay. So yeah. So you're very familiar with the text. And so I I just kinda wanted to get your thoughts, your impressions just in in reading it as a text. Like, what is your impression of who Jesus is, the importance of Jesus, what his message was? Like, if you were going to try to Try to summarize from your reading of the text.

Jay Lee [00:10:31]:

What thoughts would you share about, like, what it presents to us about Jesus and who he is and what his message is?

Calvin Smith [00:10:38]:

So it's it's kinda interesting. I kinda touched on, kind of going back to TikTok again. Sorry again. But, So I I made a TikTok about this maybe a day or 2 ago about how 77 so now now you mentioned Jesus. Right? You know? And and Jesus, he he comes into the New Testament. So, I'm I'm not sure if if you or or many people know this, but 77% of the the Bible is the Old Testament. 77.6% of the Bible is the Old Testament. So Think of watching an hour and a half long movie, and the main character, the main guy that you wanna see, the guy who's on the cover of the movie, You don't even see him or hear his name until the last 20 minutes of the movie.

Calvin Smith [00:11:26]:

That's essentially What's happening with the Bible is that Jesus is is absolutely nowhere named or mentioned. Now they mention the Christ or they mention, you know, a messiah or, You know, something to that effect, but they never specifically mention Jesus, anywhere in the old testament. Nowhere is that name found. So Anyways but so I would think of Jesus as being a person who took the ideas of the Old Testament and Refined them to to his liking. I I would kind of look at at Jesus as being, if I'm being honest, just Another apocalyptic preacher of the time. You know, apocalyptic preaching was Mhmm. You know? Even today, it's it's nothing, you know, that's, That's gone. By any means, people are still doing it, and I you know, it definitely was happening even more back in that those times.

Calvin Smith [00:12:17]:

So I feel like Jesus was just a guy who had a lot of apocalyptic preachings that were based off of ancient, Near Eastern and Jewish cultural cultural norms and and stories and, essentially, refining those and finding out what his local community likes and getting a small group of people that that, You know, he he got a cult following from, and that cult following grew, and his teachings grew. And, his story got more and more exaggerated as time went on. And it eventually turned into, you know, the Paul Bunyan of today. You know? You it's it's how I look at it as it's No skin off my back if Jesus Christ was a real person who existed. You know, I'm I'm still honestly still kind of on the fence as to whether Jesus, This Jesus from the Bible was even a real person. I'm still kind of on the fence as to is this guy just purely a character in this in this book? I'm not totally convinced, but I digress. It's regardless of the things that were said that he did in the Bible, The question is, did he actually do those things, and did he actually say those things? Did he say the red parables in the Bible, you know, the the colored red parables? Is that what he actually said? How do we know that's what he said? Bottom line is we we don't. We we just don't know.

Calvin Smith [00:13:41]:

We believe it. You know, you can believe it. You can read it in the Bible, and it says Jesus said this, but what reason outside of that do you have to think that he said that or did that or that happened? So how I look at it is that Jesus is just a guy, if he existed at all, was just a guy from ancient Near East. And he had some teachings that people caught on to and it spread and Now it's the world's largest religion.

Jay Lee [00:14:11]:

Okay.

Calvin Smith [00:14:12]:

And I mean, I feel like that's not uncommon. You know, you look at Hinduism and Islam and These other religions and that's I mean, look at Scientology, for example. That's basically what's happened with Scientology. It started off as a very small cult following of people, and now there's, You know, hun almost hundreds of thousands of people that are following Scientology. Yeah.

Jay Lee [00:14:31]:

So you're saying that just because there's a lot of people who follow something doesn't necessarily mean that it's true or it Correct. Okay. So let let's let's kinda go into some of that. So it's interesting to hear you say that. So let first, let's just start with, like, the text itself. Right? Well, first of all, like, in the new testament and I I I think you're still kind of Questioning the historicity of it, the reality of it outside of the text, but just within the world of the text itself. Right? You know, Jesus's claim was that he was the fulfillment of all of these promises that you see in the old testament or the Hebrew scriptures is a more PC term, and that, you know, all of them actually testify of him. And so, you know, a lot of times, Christians, when they're studying the old testament and granted, there are There are portions of the Christian community who feel like, the old testament, it's old.

Jay Lee [00:15:24]:

We don't need that anymore, right, which is Extremely uninformed because exactly like you said, Jesus's Bible was the Old Testament, and so much of the Bible is the Old Testament. And, really, what we would believe is to understand the New Testament, you actually have to understand the Old Testament because it is what leads up to and make sense of everything that happens in the new testament and what happens in the ministry of Jesus.

Calvin Smith [00:15:49]:

You have no idea how glad I am to hear you say that because That's an argument that I get into literally almost every day, is Christians disregarding the Old Testament. And it's like, so And then they'll say, but the 10 commandments. And I'm like, oh, man, you just caught yourself, right? Oh, boy.

Jay Lee [00:16:12]:

So they want part of it, but they don't want it.

Calvin Smith [00:16:13]:

Yeah. That drives me crazy. It's like you can't you you can't have the new testament without the old testament. So, yeah, I'm just I'm glad That

Jay Lee [00:16:21]:

Yeah. So that

Calvin Smith [00:16:21]:

you say that.

Jay Lee [00:16:22]:

I'm interest so so that's why I'm kind of, I find it interesting that in your reading of the bible. Like so, again, kind of disregarding whether or not you think it actually happened, but just, like, living in within the world of the text itself That in your reading of through the Bible, you have not seen any connections between the Old Testament and some of the prophecies season the promises that God was making to, you know, the Israelites and the Jewish people, and then what happens with Jesus in the Like, you you don't see any correlation there?

Calvin Smith [00:16:56]:

Not really. So how I see it is so correlation isn't causation. And so just because these things so, you know, the old testament happened, and there's there's even portions of the old testament that are even thought to be Closer to when the New Testament was actually, you know, beginning to be written, small portions of it. And so it makes you sit back and think like, okay. So how Is is it even possible that they could have seen these things in the the Old Testament, said, okay. This needs to happen. This needs to happen. Enable for this to happen.

Calvin Smith [00:17:28]:

Couldn't they just say that it happened in the New Testament? And, I mean, it's it's an unfalsifiable claim. Drawing a blank on anything that I could use as an right now. But

Jay Lee [00:17:39]:

Like, that he was gonna be born in Bethlehem, that he was gonna

Calvin Smith [00:17:43]:

be a Nazarian going to test that Right here today, right now, how can we test that and prove that to know that that was fulfilled? We can't.

Jay Lee [00:17:52]:

So I mean, You might be able to. It depends on if there's any extent historical evidence.

Calvin Smith [00:17:59]:

Right. I guess I guess let me clarify that. We could. There are ways that we could test that, but do we have that evidence? Do we have that reason to believe in that

Jay Lee [00:18:09]:

claim?

Calvin Smith [00:18:11]:

So, yeah, I mean, not to say that there isn't true things and true events, true people, etcetera, that, you know, are in the Bible and are present in the Bible. And there's, You know, King Nebuchadnezzar, definitely a real person. You know? Not a doubt in my mind. There's a plethora of evidence to corroborate his existence, but It's like when it goes down to the supernatural or paranormal things that happen. Like, talking about King Nebuchadnezzar when he just gets out on the grass and just Eating grass for a number of years. I think I think it was, like, 3 years or something. He was eating only grass, like a cow I

Jay Lee [00:18:42]:

don't remember how long, but he basically went insane for a period of time.

Calvin Smith [00:18:46]:

Yeah. And there is liter like, I really searched for some sort of corroboration for that. Like because I feel like if a king just got down and just started eating grass For a number of years that somebody would have written that down, like, somewhere, nowhere. It does not exist. There there is Absolutely not a single person on the planet that ever said that they saw him eat grass even once. So why would I believe

Jay Lee [00:19:10]:

Well, there's at least 1 person. Right? Because somebody wrote that. Yeah. But you I I understand what you're saying. Somebody outside of the scripture writers. But I mean

Calvin Smith [00:19:19]:

Right. Because it's like, did that person actually see it, or did they just But I mean you know?

Jay Lee [00:19:23]:

There is still at least 1 person. Right? Because I think, to be fair, sometimes I think we disregard the fact that, yeah, there are people who are claiming to be witnesses of certain things, who are writing these things, which, have been preserved in these new testament documents, but We we discount them because, well, they have an ulterior motive. You know? They're believers. They're followers of this thing, so They their word can't be trusted. We we kind of disregard it as this is not real evidence, which I mean, I understand that there is obviously the possibility That this person has ulterior motives and could be deceptive, right, because they're trying to promote, you know, this thing that they believe. But it's also you have to admit, it's also a little unfair to say just because I support this particular position, therefore, my words don't count. So it seems like the only words that could count would be, like okay. So we have the testimony of the people who actually wrote the new testament documents like that.

Jay Lee [00:20:22]:

Jesus rose from the dead. Then you also have documents of maybe, like, early, you know, early church fathers who say that they knew you know, they were associates of the apostles who were witnesses of Jesus rising from the dead. Right? So you you have these testimonies that say, hey. We Either saw it or we knew the guys who saw it. Right? But it kinda seems like we disregard those. Like, well, they're believers, so that can't be trusted.

Calvin Smith [00:20:51]:

So I wouldn't disregard them just simply because they're believers. I would disregard them because I see no reason to believe them other than Saying, I know a guy who knows a guy who did this. You know? Like, if I if I if I met someone on the street and They told me that they know a guy who rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Why would I believe him other than that reason? Like, what so I enabled for me to believe this guy on the street that said, hey. Let's even go even further. My best friend let's say my best friend approaches me and says, hey, I saw a guy that ascended into heaven. He rose from the dead, and he got hit by a car and then ascended into heaven. I watched it happen.

Calvin Smith [00:21:38]:

I was a witness, and there was a bunch of other people there. Okay. Mike, that's his name. So I would say, Okay, Mike, can you give me a witness? Just some who else was there? Who else was there with you? Yeah. Oh, well, couldn't tell you. Couldn't tell you. And not a not a single of the 500 people out there. I couldn't tell you a single one of their names.

Calvin Smith [00:21:57]:

Mhmm. Okay. Could you did anyone else write this down? Did anybody else write this down? Anyone. No, none of the 500 people wrote this down. How can you prove to me that there were 500 people there? Well, I can't. I I have no reason other than telling you that 500 people do you see where I'm getting at? Is that, like, him just saying that the stuff happened, Even though he's my best friend, I I all in all, you don't know what's going on in their head. You don't know what alternative motives they may have. You don't know if They had some sub sort of psychotic breakdown.

Calvin Smith [00:22:33]:

You don't know if they're being manipulated by somebody else to push a different motive or, you know, anything. You you really don't know. Even though this is my best friend, I still would not believe him. So why would I believe a guy 1000 of year you know, in a book that's 1000 of years previous to me, Some random guy who I don't I'm not even sure existed. Why would I believe that when he says a guy said this?

Jay Lee [00:23:01]:

Yeah. So I guess if your friend just tells you, hey. I saw a red bird, it's easy to accept that testimony because there's nothing Unbelievable about it. There's nothing amazing about it. But the more unbelievable something is that somebody tells you, I guess, maybe the more likely you are to be skeptical. So if your best friend tells you, hey. I saw a guy rise from the dead, there's a natural skepticism that would come into play. So I I I get that part.

Jay Lee [00:23:28]:

I I get the part where it's like, the more fantastic and more unbelievable the claim, the more likely you are to be skeptical, even if it's somebody you trust. Right.

Calvin Smith [00:23:37]:

Yes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's pretty much where I'm coming from.

Jay Lee [00:23:42]:

So I mean, that makes sense, and it is not my belief that people come to believe that Jesus really rose from the dead and that he lives now know, necessarily because they were presented with a bunch of historical evidence or, well, here's all of the, you know, eyewitness testimonies and their Affidavits and, you know, their certified statements and, you know, here's how many of them we have. Like, I I don't think most people come to believe because They saw a bunch of that kind of information, but I do think, though, there is considering that this is something that happened 2,000 plus years ago, There is evidence. I mean, there is testimony. And, again, going back to your what you're saying, maybe it's not enough evidence For you to say, I believe it now. Like I said, I don't think too many people come to believe it because they were presented with a bunch of evidence. But I think there is evidence still, And I think there's a decent amount of evidence that could at least make a person say, that's interesting considering that this is something that happened 2000 years ago. So for For instance, like, at the beginning of our interview, you were talking about how you're still kind of on the fence of whether Jesus is even a real person. Right? And so Mhmm.

Jay Lee [00:24:54]:

I mean, Stop to think like, okay. What would convince us that Jesus was a real historical person? I well, 1, some sort of eyewitness Testimony that is recorded that is, you know, contemporary Yeah. From that time. But also on top of that, Well, if the only eyewitness testimony that we have that is contemporary from that time, which obviously we have, the new testament documents, because the new testament documents, regardless of whether you believe the Truth claims, they are pretty reliably dated back to the 1st century, so they're at least contemporary, and then, you know, the witness of early church fathers. But I think probably a skeptic would say, well, if I really wanna believe Jesus really existed, I need to see eyewitness Testimonies from people who are not Christians. Right? Like, who are not people who followed this religion. And we have that too. Right? We have, You know, a handful, which, you know, maybe I don't know exactly how many.

Jay Lee [00:25:50]:

Maybe there's, like, 5 or 6, but there's 5 or 6 Roman or Jewish Historians who are not, at least not that we know of, are not Christians, who are not followers of Jesus, who testified that there was this guy named Jesus of Nazareth.

Calvin Smith [00:26:07]:

Now could could you I I all I already kind of know what names you you're thinking of.

Jay Lee [00:26:14]:

Well, there's only 5 of them. So, yeah, I would think that you

Calvin Smith [00:26:17]:

Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus. Who else is there?

Jay Lee [00:26:22]:

I don't know. You're right, though. It's those guys.

Calvin Smith [00:26:24]:

Well, those 3 so those 3, they were all born Any anywhere between, 30 CE to 200 CE. Any anywhere in between there. So That quite literally means that they would have lived well after Jesus would have lived according to the chronology of the Bible. And to be fair, None of those people specifically said that they were firsthand witnesses of Jesus. None of none of them ever did. They Claim to, again, to have known people who knew Jesus or knew people who knew a guy who knew Jesus or knew a guy who Thinks he saw Jesus in a dream or something like that. But, to be fair, those those 3 people and the the other couple people whose names are totally escaping me right now, they they never once claimed to to have seen Jesus or be firsthand witnesses. And, frankly, they historically could not have because we we have Not their exact day of birth, but we have their their years of birth indefinitely.

Calvin Smith [00:27:25]:

So but isn't that and

Jay Lee [00:27:27]:

isn't that how we know How anybody from history existed? I mean, none of us living today are eyewitnesses of anybody who lived in history before our lifetimes. Right? So

Calvin Smith [00:27:39]:

And I only believe the people that existed that we have evidence to believe we had they they existed. So, Like George Washington. That's usually the one that people usually go to is, Oh, you know, why do you believe George Washington exists? Well, we Quite literally have his like have his like body.

Jay Lee [00:27:58]:

We do. We have his bottom somewhere.

Calvin Smith [00:28:01]:

So we And that's like he was president of the United States. Right.

Jay Lee [00:28:06]:

That's

Calvin Smith [00:28:07]:

a pretty major deal.

Jay Lee [00:28:08]:

I'm taking somebody else's word for it.

Calvin Smith [00:28:12]:

I'm pretty sure